Cross-border ridership

[Tom Box [e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

The semi-annual meeting of the Transportation Border Working
Group (TBWG) took place in April in Buffalo, but the documents
from that meeting were only recently posted on line. The most
interesting one for this group is
<http://www.thetbwg.org/meetings/Buffalo_plenary/Presentations%20(Day%201)/Amtrak%20Update.ppt>

Page 4 of the above document shows ridership numbers for the
three cross-border passenger train routes for the last 12
years. While there are up-and-down yearly fluctuations on all
three routes, the trends have been positive for the Adirondack
(Montreal - New York) and Cascades (Vancouver - Seattle), but
negative for the Maple Leaf (Toronto - New York).

From 2002 to 2013(*), cross-border ridership has gone from

59,887 to 90,374 on the Adirondack (51% increase), and from
94,947 to 142,697 on the Cascades (50% increase), but from
72,620 to 36,787 on the Maple Leaf (49% decrease).

(* - the yearly figures are for Amtrak's fiscal year, which
runs from October of the previous year to September of the
named year)

The 36,787 cross-border passengers on the Maple Leaf
last year give an average of 50 per train. According to
statistics compiled by the National Asssociation of Railroad
Passengers (NARP), 11,320 of the cross-border passengers (16
per train, on average) got on or off the train in Niagara
Falls, Ont. and so were only travelling on the Amtrak part
of the route, while 24,893 (34 per train, on average) were
also travelling on the VIA portion of the route, to/from
stations between St. Catharines and Toronto. (That leaves
574 passenger unaccounted for, when we compare the TBWG and
NARP stats. I don't know the reason for the discrepancy,
but it's only a small fraction of the total.)

From VIA's 2013 annual report, VIA carried 47,991 passengers

on the Maple Leaf in 2013. That's January to December, while
the numbers in the previous paragraph are for October 2012 to
September 2013. If we cheat a little and assume that the
numbers are comparable for those overlapping 12-month periods,
that would give 24,893 international passengers, as above, and
23,098 domestic Canadian passengers (32 per train, on average)
on the VIA portion of the route. Those are not large numbers,
and one has to wonder about the future of VIA's share of the
train.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


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For help, send an email to Canadian-Passenger-Rail-help-***@public.gmane.org

[[e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

The reason people, myself and my team included, have stopped using the Maple Leaf is it's a royal pain in the arse.

I live in the GTA, one mile west of Union Station (though considerably north). I can leave my house when the New York-bound train gets to Niagara Falls, stop at Timmy's for a tea, stop at the duty free to buy some whisky, and still get to Buffalo station before that train leaves Niagara Falls.

When the Rapido crew goes to Springfield they drive to Buffalo and train from there.

Either have customs at Union Station and seal-off the through customers so the border stop is five minutes, or kill the Maple Leaf and give us reliable, regular Toronto-Niagara Falls service.

The Adirondack border stop is much less invasive and much quicker, and the Seattle-bound customers go through customs in Vancouver.

-Jason

[Knut [e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

I don't understand why customs is not handled in the same manner as in Europe before the EU.
Customs agents get on the train well before the border and by the time the train reaches the border all the customs formalities are done.

The Maple Leaf takes two hours from Toronto to Niagara Falls, plenty of time for US customs agents who get on in Toronto to do their thing.
If any of the passengers don't have the right paperwork or are refused entry into the US, they get escorted off the train in Niagara Falls, Canada.

Same process the other way.
This would cut almost two hours off the travel time.
Process they have used in Europe for many years, even between the "West" and the soviet-block countries - should be a no-brainer between the US and Canada

Knut

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Post by jshron-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
The reason people, myself and my team included, have stopped using the Maple Leaf is it's a royal pain in the arse.
I live in the GTA, one mile west of Union Station (though considerably north). I can leave my house when the New York-bound train gets to Niagara Falls, stop at Timmy's for a tea, stop at the duty free to buy some whisky, and still get to Buffalo station before that train leaves Niagara Falls.
When the Rapido crew goes to Springfield they drive to Buffalo and train from there.
Either have customs at Union Station and seal-off the through customers so the border stop is five minutes, or kill the Maple Leaf and give us reliable, regular Toronto-Niagara Falls service.
The Adirondack border stop is much less invasive and much quicker, and the Seattle-bound customers go through customs in Vancouver.
-Jason

[xcnken-/[e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

Basically it's all boils down to dollars. That doesn't make any 'cents' by discouraging passengers who use cross border train services.
I vividly recall that excuse when having discussions with Canada Customs / Immigration officials. About how ridiculous the delays were northbound at Cantic Qc on the former Amtrak Montrealer service up to 1995. As opposed to inspections with customs done aboard enroute up until 1966. As well as on the D&H from Lacolle until 1971.
He claimed that they there were no budgetary provisions to either transport employees to and from. Or lose them for the better part of a day inspecting on the move.
Although it hasn't been done yet supposedly a pre clearance area is in the works for Montreal's Central Station.

[robertmoeller47-/[e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

Would love to see a return of the service on the routes once provided by the Montrealer /Washingtonian and Ambassador. Believe talks are underway and it is the federal level in both the US and Canada that is the sticking point. Provinvial and state governments are supportive.

Resolving the immigration, customs, border crossing procedures would make travel across the border smoother.

Bob Moeller
Modeling the Montrealer, Washingtonian, Ambassador, New Englander in the last decade of CV steam, 1947-1957, at Swanton VT

[xcnken-/[e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

Yes Vancouverites certainly have a more user friendly pre-clearance procedures. Thanks in part to the action of some Vancouver politicians. When that second Amtrak Seattle departure was introduced during the winter Olympics it almost got cancelled afterwards. With excessively high customs charges our feds in Ottawa suddenly imposed. Once the community reacted they backed down and changed their tune.


However customs procedures up here have not improved by any measurable amount and can be as thorough as ever for Amtrak's Adirondack. The delays in both directions can increase depending on the load factor. Published schedules in Rouses Point and Cantic indicate so.


A previously announced project New York state officials said would speed up customs procedures in Montreal has yet to be completed.


K.Wadden Pointe Claire Qc

[G Burridge gburridge-/[e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

Post by xcnken-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Yes Vancouverites certainly have a more user friendly pre-clearance
procedures. Thanks in part to the action of some Vancouver
politicians. When that second Amtrak Seattle departure was
introduced during the winter Olympics it almost got cancelled
afterwards. With excessively high customs charges our feds in Ottawa
suddenly imposed. Once the community reacted they backed down and
changed their tune.

How much time is required for in-station clearance
procedure? How early in advance of train departure must passengers
present themselves?
While in-station clearance reduces actual train trip time by
eliminating long border stops for inspection and interrogation, to
what extent might the gain be off-set be the time required for the
processing of the same train-load at the station?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gerry Burridge - PO Box 152 - Pte.Claire-Dorval, Que. - H9R 4N9

"Labour is prior to, and independent of capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labour,
and could never have existed if Labour had not first existed. Labour
is superior
to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --- Abraham Lincoln
=========================================================



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Posted by: G Burridge <gburridge-/***@public.gmane.org>
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For help, send an email to Canadian-Passenger-Rail-help-***@public.gmane.org

[Knut [e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

Yes, custom clearance at the station probably doesn't do much to reduce total trip time, it just eliminates one of the advantages of train travel that Via advertises - not having to be at the departure point a couple of hours before departure as required for train travel.

US and Canadian customs service is still in the Middle Ages.
Last time I travelled to Europe all the customs agent in Frankfurt did was scan my passport and that was it.
No questions - in and out in 30 seconds.

Post by G Burridge gburridge-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
How much time is required for in-station clearance
procedure? How early in advance of train departure must passengers
present themselves?
While in-station clearance reduces actual train trip time by
eliminating long border stops for inspection and interrogation, to
what extent might the gain be off-set be the time required for the
processing of the same train-load at the station

[xcnken-/[e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

Based on my own personal experience riding and / or working Amtrak trains in both directions out of Montreal I look at it this way. .


Anything ! is an big improvement over the current padded schedules coupled with any unexpected delays that go with the customs formalities.


All the more so when you consider how it was accomplished before the 70's. Governmental agencies just hate to spend money. Let alone hire more employees.


Meanwhile these impediments effectively discourage patronage. Driving across the border can be long enough as it is. Does anyone care ?


K. Wadden Pointe Claire Qc

[Ross Bligh [e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

Technically, passengers to Seattle clear US Immigration in Vancouver. US Customs officers still get on the train at the border (sometimes with a dog) and do their thing. It is usually pretty quick—15 minutes is the longest I have seen.

Post by jshron-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
The Adirondack border stop is much less invasive and much quicker, and the Seattle-bound customers go through customs in Vancouver.
-Jason

[gordon kennedy gkennedymba-/[e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

I took the VIA/Amtrak train from Toronto to Chicago at Christmas time in 2001. The US border patrol and immigration officers boarded the train and then promptly empty it of all but 3 passengers (I was one of the 3) for additional checks. The train was delayed for hours, before many passengers were allowed to board the train again, but the train crew later told me a few passengers were left behind.


Likewise the passengers on VIA’s Atlantic Limited (Halifax-Saint John- Montreal) were abruptly awakened in the middle of the night and asked a serious of routine questions by US Immigrations ... on one occassion ... I was dead asleep in my roomette when I was abruptly awakened by a loud knocked on the door. I was in a groggy stupor and could barely think. I was asked, “ Are you going home?” I muttered and mumbled as I struggled to answer coherently. Maritimers always refer to “home” as the place they were raised ... their hometown ... but at the time I lived in Toronto and was headed back to “TO” so I replied “No I am going back to work.” BAM just like that I was a person of suspicion. The immigration officer asked me a battery of questions, until the CPR conductor who was accompanying him interceded on my behalf and told him he knew my dad (ex-CPR) and me personally.

If we want good cross-border rail service, immigration issues and security checks have to resolved prior to departure.

Gordon

Shanghai







________________________________
From: "jshron-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]" <Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org>
To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 10:10 AM
Subject: [CanPassRail] Re: Cross-border ridership




The reason people, myself and my team included, have stopped using the Maple Leaf is it's a royal pain in the arse.

I live in the GTA, one mile west of Union Station (though considerably north). I can leave my house when the New York-bound train gets to Niagara Falls, stop at Timmy's for a tea, stop at the duty free to buy some whisky, and still get to Buffalo station before that train leaves Niagara Falls.

When the Rapido crew goes to Springfield they drive to Buffalo and train from there.

Either have customs at Union Station and seal-off the through customers so the border stop is five minutes, or kill the Maple Leaf and give us reliable, regular Toronto-Niagara Falls service.

The Adirondack border stop is much less invasive and much quicker, and the Seattle-bound customers go through customs in Vancouver.

-Jason

[Tom Box [e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

Post by xcnken-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
A previously announced project New York state officials said
would speed up customs procedures in Montreal has yet to be
completed.

Are you referring to this 2012 press release from U.S. Senator
Chuck Schumer, and the resulting news stories?
<http://www.schumer.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=336750&>
Schumer is a relentless publicity hound, always ready to make
a mountain out of a molehill and suggest that it should be
named Mount Schumer. His statements, including this one, have
to be taken with a large grain of salt. Planning work has been
done for preclearance in Montreal, but it's not a done deal.

Here are some slides from a Transportation Border Working Group
meeting in April 2013, which show Amtrak engineering drawings
for a customs clearance area next to track 23 in Montreal
Central Station. See slides 4 to 11 in
<http://www.thetbwg.org/meetings/201304/presentations/D1P7a.ppt>.

A year later, the slides from the April 2014 TBWG meeting that
I referenced at the start of this thread yesterday say

"In response to a request by [U.S. Department of Homeland Security]
Assistant Secretary Bersin, the partners have prepared preliminary
draft business case
* Currently incomplete due to missing information and delays in
getting it; and now out of date requiring rework
* Preliminary draft mostly addressing the "Adirondack" includes:
* Anticipated facility construction cost $6.2 to 6.4 million
* Trip time in each direction reduced by over an hour
* "Adirondack" ridership increase 27,000; Passenger revenue
increase of $1.6 million
* Reduces deficit by approximately $1 million/year
* Greenhouse gas emissions reduced by 270 tons/year
* Introduces same day Amtrak/VIA Rail Canada interline connections
* An extended Vermonter would carry roughly 40,000 more riders/year
* Missing elements include computation of tourism benefits to the
partners and concurrence with conceptual plan by [U.S. Customs and
Border Protection] so that payback and return on investment can be
determined"

Post by xcnken-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
While in-station clearance reduces actual train trip time by
eliminating long border stops for inspection and interrogation,
to what extent might the gain be off-set be the time required
for the processing of the same train-load at the station?

The total processing time is probably about the same. The big
difference is that when the clearance is done on board the
stopped train at the border, *everybody* has to wait until the
last passenger is cleared. When it is done in the station after
arrival (as in Vancouver), only the *last* passenger has to wait
that long. If you're at the head of the line and you're a
straightforward case, you can be cleared a few minutes after
the train arrives. If an equal amount of time were required
for each passenger, then on average you'd save half of the
waiting time by doing clearance after arrival. In practice,
there are usually a few problem cases that take up more than
their share of time. As long as there's more than one inspector,
so that one problem case doesn't bring the whole queue to a halt,
then the average time savings will usually be more than 50% for
the non-problem cases.

Post by xcnken-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Technically, passengers to Seattle clear US Immigration in
Vancouver. US Customs officers still get on the train at the
border (sometimes with a dog) and do their thing. It is
usually pretty quick—15 minutes is the longest I have seen.

When Stephen Harper visited Barack Obama in December 2011,
they said they were going to do full preclearance in Vancouver
so the train wouldn't have to stop at the border. Negotiations
were supposed to be concluded by December 2012. That hasn't
happened yet -- I went from Vancouver to Seattle three months
ago, and there was a quick border stop as Ross describes. The
above April 2014 TBWG meeting said

"* Goal is full preclearance for rail passengers
* Full preclearance would eliminate current customs inspection
on trains to the U.S. saving at least ten minutes of trip time"

Post by xcnken-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
I took the VIA/Amtrak train from Toronto to Chicago at Christmas
time in 2001.

I.e. after 9/11.

Post by xcnken-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
The US border patrol and immigration officers boarded the train
and then promptly empty it of all but 3 passengers (I was one
of the 3) for additional checks.

I took that train in May 1996, and the inspection in Port Huron
was on board the train, and not much different from Niagara Falls
or Rouses Point. I heard other post-9/11 reports similar to
Gordon's about the Toronto - Chicago International. I don't know
why there was a bigger crackdown at Sarnia/Port Huron than
elsewhere (maybe a tunnel is considered a more likely terrorist
target than a bridge?), or why Niagara Falls seems now to have
deteriorated more than Lacolle/Rouses Point.

Post by xcnken-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Likewise the passengers on VIA's Atlantic Limited (Halifax-
Saint John-Montreal) were abruptly awakened in the middle of
the night and asked a serious of routine questions by US
Immigrations

That changed over time. I rode the Atlantic through Maine five
times in 1989 and 1994, always going from Quebec to New Brunswick
or vice versa. I never saw a U.S Customs or Immigration officer,
and only once Canada Customs. He didn't ask the usual questions;
he only had his dog sniff my bags.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


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[xcnken-/[e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

Yes I was referring to Senator Schumer 's non- initiative.
The same individual who came out with some impractical demands for the MNCRR after that over speed accident north of New York.


K. Wadden Pointe Claire Qc.

[[e-mail] [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]]

The numbers for the Adirondack are somewhat skewed because of the discontinuance of the Montreal connecting bus to the Vermonter in 2005. That probably wasn't a huge number but clearly some of that business has transferred to the Adirondack. When compared to the last pre Amtrak schedule in 1971 Montreal to Plattsburgh is carded in 3'05" now versus 1'52" then. The D&H has scheduled in 9'15" versus 10'50' in 2014.In mid August it took me 2'15" to cross the border. It will be unfortunate if Senator Schumer has lost interest in the customs issue since it will only be solved politically.

The Cascade numbers are great but keep in mind there is a doubling of frequencies.

Ira Silverman
Rockville MD