Discussion:
Amtrak Cascades border crossing and route and Rocky Mountaineer to Seattle and will the route move.
Hall G gh3716-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-09-23 16:05:45 UTC
Permalink
On the discussion of trains crossing the border.
The Cascades route still has an opportunity to attract a lot more customers, if it was more accessible and faster for the locals living south of Vancouver.
On a past ride there was a long boarding wait then wait to depart as everyone went through the customs pre clearance with only 2 agents interviewing passengers at the Vancouver station.
Then at the border we stopped again for customs to board the train and go through the train and in a very loud voice discuss for all to hear each persons history and reason for visiting the US. Rather uncomfortable.

The Rocky Mountaineer has been running a few trips to Seattle on the same route as the Cascades several trips this year. Boarding is the same as Amtrak at the Cage at the Vancouver VIA/Amtrak station.
Listed at link below under Coastal passage.
http://www.rockymountaineer.com/en_CA_BC/travel_planning/schedule


I was down to White Rock to try to get some photos of Amtrak Cascades and Rocky with near sunset photos and good light on the trains as they passed by the White Rock and Mount Baker. I was using a long telephoto lens from the White Rock Pier. So I was able to see the trains stopped south bound at the border, they stop right next to the Peace Arch border crossing for customs southbound. The Rocky Mountaineer was stopped for 15 minutes and Amtrak for 20. Northbound they do not stop.

There has been much discussion locally of late since the port approved shipping coal from Fraser River port and the increase in freight rail traffic and coal. Also Transport Canada at one time closed beach access on some parts of the beach for people crossing the train tracks due to some reviews of deaths along the White Rock walk way next to the beach and tracks. Th walkways along the beach are right next to the tracks with a railing between, you could reach your hand out and touch the train. The trains now have to sound the horns loudly frequently all along the route day and night and there are increased complaints from this. And people are concerned about the coal dust, hazardous goods and increase in overall rail freight traffic. They want the tracks moved from White Rock and Crescent
beach. They are also concerned about the safety of wildlife marsh and old worn trestles over it. BNSF is currently rebuilding the trestle.

Most local politicians and political hopefuls, at all levels of government are now responding with and running on a platform of having the train tracks moved in land away from the beach. An inland route would make the passenger train trips a little less scenic.

Here are some links and last one shows the other possible routes proposed. It should be noted that there is a lot of resistance from the residents in the communities that are near the proposed new routes. Perhaps the train tracks will be moved to the original route that ran up through Cloverdale roughly along 176 St., then west along the BC Rail route to Roberts Bank and connection to the current route to the Fraser River Bridge.

http://www.surrey.ca/city-government/14318.aspx

http://www.surrey.ca/city-services/14285.aspx

http://www.thenownewspaper.com/news/surrey-first-promises-action-on-rail-relocation-1.1377441

Perhaps if the tracks do get relocated there might be some way to get a train station stop just south of the border this would make the Amtrak Cascades route much more accessible to the locals much more of the Greater Vancouver population would be able to access the train to Seattle. It takes too much time now to travel all the way back into Vancouver wait for the long boarding procedure then long trip back through the southern cities. Being able to go direct through local customs and board the train would save a couple of hours.
Currently vehicle wait times at the border are commonly 1 to 2 hours. Being able to walk through customs and catch a train would make it that much easier to use the train.

Gordon
Jon Calon jon.yg-E/5X+czw1vY@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-09-23 17:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Well Gordon,

One way to resolve all the moaning and complaining about going into Vancouver would be to encourage Amtrak to go with their Scott Road station idea... They have been humming and hawing on the better option given the cost of improving the new west rail bridge... And if they stopped the train in Surrey at the Scott Road skytrain station, they could serve all the people further south, at the expense of making everyone wanting to go further to use the Skytrain to actually get to Vancouver.

But be clear on this. They don't want two stations in BC. Nor do they want to stop the train at Blaine. Once the Feds clear the notion of allowing railway stations to be the same thing as US preclearance areas in Airports, the train can depart and go directly to Bellingham without needing to stop at all.

And since the Canadian governments don't buck up a single dollar of support for operating the train, it's Amtrak's and WashDOT's call where the train stops. If the Canadians want better service for the train, then money talks and well...you know the rest.

Cheers,
Jon
Post by Hall G gh3716-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
On the discussion of trains crossing the border.
The Cascades route still has an opportunity to attract a lot more customers, if it was more accessible and faster for the locals living south of Vancouver.
On a past ride there was a long boarding wait then wait to depart as everyone went through the customs pre clearance with only 2 agents interviewing passengers at the Vancouver station.
Then at the border we stopped again for customs to board the train and go through the train and in a very loud voice discuss for all to hear each persons history and reason for visiting the US. Rather uncomfortable.
The Rocky Mountaineer has been running a few trips to Seattle on the same route as the Cascades several trips this year. Boarding is the same as Amtrak at the Cage at the Vancouver VIA/Amtrak station.
Listed at link below under Coastal passage.
http://www.rockymountaineer.com/en_CA_BC/travel_planning/schedule
I was down to White Rock to try to get some photos of Amtrak Cascades and Rocky with near sunset photos and good light on the trains as they passed by the White Rock and Mount Baker. I was using a long telephoto lens from the White Rock Pier. So I was able to see the trains stopped south bound at the border, they stop right next to the Peace Arch border crossing for customs southbound. The Rocky Mountaineer was stopped for 15 minutes and Amtrak for 20. Northbound they do not stop.
There has been much discussion locally of late since the port approved shipping coal from Fraser River port and the increase in freight rail traffic and coal. Also Transport Canada at one time closed beach access on some parts of the beach for people crossing the train tracks due to some reviews of deaths along the White Rock walk way next to the beach and tracks. Th walkways along the beach are right next to the tracks with a railing between, you could reach your hand out and touch the train. The trains now have to sound the horns loudly frequently all along the route day and night and there are increased complaints from this. And people are concerned about the coal dust, hazardous goods and increase in overall rail freight traffic. They want the tracks moved from White Rock and Crescent beach. They are also concerned about the safety of wildlife marsh and old worn trestles over it. BNSF is currently rebuilding the trestle.
Most local politicians and political hopefuls, at all levels of government are now responding with and running on a platform of having the train tracks moved in land away from the beach. An inland route would make the passenger train trips a little less scenic.
Here are some links and last one shows the other possible routes proposed. It should be noted that there is a lot of resistance from the residents in the communities that are near the proposed new routes. Perhaps the train tracks will be moved to the original route that ran up through Cloverdale roughly along 176 St., then west along the BC Rail route to Roberts Bank and connection to the current route to the Fraser River Bridge.
http://www.surrey.ca/city-government/14318.aspx
http://www.surrey.ca/city-services/14285.aspx
http://www.thenownewspaper.com/news/surrey-first-promises-action-on-rail-relocation-1.1377441
Perhaps if the tracks do get relocated there might be some way to get a train station stop just south of the border this would make the Amtrak Cascades route much more accessible to the locals much more of the Greater Vancouver population would be able to access the train to Seattle. It takes too much time now to travel all the way back into Vancouver wait for the long boarding procedure then long trip back through the southern cities. Being able to go direct through local customs and board the train would save a couple of hours.
Currently vehicle wait times at the border are commonly 1 to 2 hours. Being able to walk through customs and catch a train would make it that much easier to use the train.
Gordon
xcnken-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-09-24 00:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Amen to that Jon. Like yeah. The feds have been getting a free ! ride for far too long.


All three levels of government in this country are forever squawking about making improvements to cross border passenger rail services. But have yet to initiate any ground breaking changes. That could further increase patronage.


Maybe it'll suddenly improve...........around election time. ? !


K. Wadden Pointe Claire Qc
'Terry' terrybc-EynCeXvFgoheoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-09-23 23:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Gord it was on the news last week on Global BC about where residents want
the tracks moved. First & foremost this has been a ongoing issue for years &
to this date nothing has been done. The BNSF Railway is just not going to
pick up their tracks & move some place else because the residents of White
Rock don't want trains rolling through their community. Furthermore all your
going to do is move it someplace else for another community to deal with
which they won't want. Yes safety is the key issue here, but then you have
people who careless about safety. I've been down at the pier many of times
or along the brick walkway & I always see people either walking on the
tracks or crossing in front of BNSF or Amtrak trains. To solve part of this
issue the BNSF Railway is going to be installing a 3 foot fence alongside
both sides of the tracks to keep people off the tracks. The other concern
residents have are increase in coal trains & more trains carrying chemicals
through the area. Again your moving the problem to another community.

Here is the story which aired on Global BC last week...
http://globalnews.ca/news/1559582/white-rock-asking-federal-government-to-move-railway/
Post by Hall G gh3716-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
There has been much discussion locally of late since the port approved
shipping coal from Fraser River port and the increase in freight rail
traffic and coal. Also Transport Canada at one time closed beach access on
some parts of the beach for people crossing the train tracks due to some
reviews of deaths along the White Rock walk way next to the beach and
tracks. Th walkways along the beach are right next to the tracks with a
railing between, you could reach your hand out and touch the train. The
trains now have to sound the horns loudly frequently all along the route
day and night and there are increased complaints from this. And people are
concerned about the coal dust, hazardous goods and increase in overall
rail freight traffic. They want the tracks moved from White Rock and
Crescent beach. They are also concerned about the safety of wildlife marsh
and old worn trestles over it. BNSF is currently rebuilding the trestle.
Most local politicians and political hopefuls, at all levels of government
are now responding with and running on a platform of having the train
tracks moved in land away from the beach. An inland route would make the
passenger train trips a little less scenic.
Here are some links and last one shows the other possible routes proposed.
It should be noted that there is a lot of resistance from the residents in
the communities that are near the proposed new routes. Perhaps the train
tracks will be moved to the original route that ran up through Cloverdale
roughly along 176 St., then west along the BC Rail route to Roberts Bank
and connection to the current route to the Fraser River Bridge.
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Posted by: "Terry" <terrybc-***@public.gmane.org>
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For help, send an email to Canadian-Passenger-Rail-help-***@public.gmane.org
Tom Box tbox-7i5HoP2kWQc@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-09-24 02:43:44 UTC
Permalink
The BNSF Railway is just not going to pick up their tracks &
move some place else because the residents of White Rock don't
want trains rolling through their community.
Thanks to Gordon Hall and to Terry for bringing this matter to
our attention.

I wasn't aware of this until now, but the Canadian Transportation
Agency does have the power to order BNSF (or any other federally
regulated railway) to move their tracks. See
<https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/relocation-railway-lines-urban-areas>.
A lot of conditions have to be met before this can happen, so
it's not a certainty, but it is possible that White Rock and
Surrey will be able to get the CTA to order that the tracks
be relocated.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


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Posted by: Tom Box <tbox-***@public.gmane.org>
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Jon Calon jon.yg-E/5X+czw1vY@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-09-24 04:03:50 UTC
Permalink
An interesting set of conditions there Tom. I heavily noted the fact that the relocation has to happen with “no net cost to the railway company”. As such, it looks like the governments are the ones on the hook for the relocation, though I’m sure that BNSF would gain some benefits from the relocation - like improved train velocity - and fund some of the improvements themselves. I’m thinking it would be a mere pittance of the total required though.

But the entire idea of relocating the tracks away from White Rock aren’t as far fetched as some may think.

The long range planning document for the Amtrak Cascades service, drafted in 2006 by WashDOT, has identified a few things which need to happen to improve the number of daily round trips by Amtrak to the Greater Vancouver area by the year 2023. In that document (located thus: <http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/nr/rdonlyres/ae671cc5-6633-4bf2-9041-fb328adb1f31/0/longrangeplanforamtrakcascades.pdf> around page 100) they state that a White Rock bypass, roughly paralleling highway 99 according to the map, is necessary to improve travel speeds and time reductions to bring the four daily round trips to the fore. It’s entirely possible that the bypass could also benefit the BNSF and not just Amtrak by rerouting everything away from the beach. Doubtless the 300+ million dollars needed to do that relocation is what’s preventing it from happening. It was hard enough to get the few measly million out of the BC government to fund the Colebrook siding in time for the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver.

It’s an interesting, and telling read, of how slow the politicians are at doling money out to needed mobility projects in Canada. The New Westminster Rail Bridge (aka the Fraser River crossing between Surrey and New West) is a very slow and busy chokepoint for the traffic going over it, and Amtrak will not be able to improve on the two daily round trips until some entity on this side of the border coughs up the approximately 575-600 million dollars to substantially upgrade or replace the structure. That is, unless the powers that be decide that terminating the service at the Scott Road Skytrain station becomes a preferable option; at which point, the frequency could improve at the loss of serving Vancouver directly.

I for one would love to see this service thrive. Whether it will or just plod along at it’s current status quo, remains to be seen.

Jon
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
The BNSF Railway is just not going to pick up their tracks &
move some place else because the residents of White Rock don't
want trains rolling through their community.
Thanks to Gordon Hall and to Terry for bringing this matter to
our attention.
I wasn't aware of this until now, but the Canadian Transportation
Agency does have the power to order BNSF (or any other federally
regulated railway) to move their tracks. See
<https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/relocation-railway-lines-urban-areas>.
A lot of conditions have to be met before this can happen, so
it's not a certainty, but it is possible that White Rock and
Surrey will be able to get the CTA to order that the tracks
be relocated.
Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada
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Tom Box tbox-7i5HoP2kWQc@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-09-24 18:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Calon jon.yg-E/5X+***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
I for one would love to see this service thrive. Whether it
will or just plod along at its current status quo, remains to
be seen.
I too wish it well.

There are some interesting ridership numbers at
<http://seattletransitblog.com/2014/09/10/amtrak-cascades-ridership-by-city-pair/>
and
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N06/15018431087/>.

The graphics on both pages list the stations from north to south,
and use Amtrak station codes. VAC is Vancouver, BC, while VAN is
Vancouver, Washington.

Seattle - Portland and Vancouver, BC - Seattle have the highest
ridership. That's no surprise, since they're the three largest
cities on the route, and the distances (187 and 157 miles,
respectively) are well suited to train travel. From the second
page above, we see that on a per-train basis, Vancouver - Seattle
is not too far behind Seattle - Portland (66.0 vs 73.6), despite
the customs hassles on the Vancouver trains. Seattle - Portland
has twice the frequency, so the absolute totals for that pair are
much higher.

It's also interesting to see how many people use the train all
the way from Vancouver to Portland, a trip of almost 9 hours.
21.1 passengers per train is not a huge number, but it's the
fourth-busiest city pair on the Cascades route, on a per-train
basis.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


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Posted by: Tom Box <tbox-***@public.gmane.org>
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