Discussion:
1965: All aboard the Rapido! (CBC radio archives)
G Burridge gburridge-/wvCPmv6SvYTjfjEsPSlEQ@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-22 05:24:27 UTC
Permalink
' "From downtown to downtown in just 4 hours and 59 minutes!"
promises CN Railways. A new express train, named the Rapido, rolls
out today offering travellers direct service between Toronto and
Montreal. The Rapido, billed as North America's fastest inter-city
passenger train, ...'

Program: Assignment
Broadcast Date: Oct. 31, 1965
Guest: [CNR Conductor] Harold Watkins
Host: Bill McNeil
Reporter: Nan Dobson
at <http://tinyurl.com/pukbpp2> ; 4 mins duration.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Trace history of Canadian Pacific Sleeping Dining & Parlor Cars:
<http://pages.globetrotter.net/burridge/CPR_SDP_HistTrace.ods>
Railways of Quebec City and South-Eastern Quebec:
<http://pages.globetrotter.net/burridge/index.htm>
Gerry Burridge - P.O. Box 152 - Pte.Claire, Que. - H9R 4N9 - CANADA
=====================================================================



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Posted by: G Burridge <gburridge-/***@public.gmane.org>
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torbeaches-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-22 10:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Wonderful stuff! I particularly like the conductor's pronunciation of "Rapido."

I can personally attest to the great meals to which he refers. THey really were top-notch.




Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
Tom Box tbox-7i5HoP2kWQc@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-22 17:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by torbeaches-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Post by G Burridge gburridge-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Program: Assignment
Broadcast Date: Oct. 31, 1965
Guest: [CNR Conductor] Harold Watkins
Host: Bill McNeil
Reporter: Nan Dobson
at <http://tinyurl.com/pukbpp2> ; 4 mins duration.
Wonderful stuff! I particularly like the conductor's pronunciation
of "Rapido."
The CBC announcer pronounces it in the way that quickly became
standard among Canadian train passengers, but that's just as
wrong as the conductor's pronunciation, as I observed here
back in 2006:

--- quote from 2006 posting ------------------------------------
Post by torbeaches-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Where did the word "Rapido" come from? I thought the French
word was "rapid" or "rapide." But it's been forty years
since my high school French, so I certainly could be wrong.
You aren't wrong. The word is "rapide" in French. Unlike
many French adjectives, it has a final "e" in both the
masculine and feminine forms.

"Rapido" isn't French. It's Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese.
I don't know why CN went to those languages for the name of
their new train. Perhaps they wanted a name that was neither
English nor French, so they wouldn't have to have two versions
of the name: "The Rapid/Le Rapide", but whose meaning could be
easily deduced by English or French speakers. Rapido's meaning
is pretty clear to both anglophones and francophones. CN
could have called it "der Schnellzug", but that would have
baffled most Canadians.

When an Italian, Spanish, or Portuguese word ends in a vowel,
the stress usually falls on the next-to-last syllable. "Rapido",
however, is an exception to this rule in all three languages.
The stress falls on the first syllable. This is explicitly
indicated in written Spanish and Portuguese, where there's
an accent mark on the "a": "Rápido". There's no written accent
in Italian, but the stress is still on the first syllable.
In all three languages, it's pronounced RA-pee-do, not
ra-PEE-do.

Canadian train passengers, however, always pronounced it
ra-PEE-do. I don't know if CN Marketing started this, when
they first started promoting the train, or if they just went
along with the usage of the general public. If it was CN's
doing, then I wonder if it was a deliberate decision on their
part, or just an unawareness of the correct pronunciation.

--- end of quote from 2006 posting ---------------------------

Does anybody know more about how CN chose the name for its
new train, or how it came to be pronounced as described above?

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


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torbeaches-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-22 19:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Frankly Tom, I doubt anyone gave it that much thought. It was a snazzy name (just as the car companies were coming up with snazzy names for their new products in the 60s) suggesting speed, and I'm betting that was that. Oh, and it was also bilingual-enough sounding, which was (and is) an important factor.

I mentioned the conductor's version, not to make an issue out of it, only that I had never heard it pronounced that way before.


Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
Tom Box tbox-7i5HoP2kWQc@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-22 21:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by torbeaches-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Does anybody know more about how CN chose the name for its
new train, or how it came to be pronounced as described above?
Frankly Tom, I doubt anyone gave it that much thought.
Really? CN was obviously conscious of the importance of
branding, as shown by its 1960 image makeover with the new
corporate logo, new paint scheme, etc. What makes you believe
they wouldn't think long and hard about the name of their new
flagship train?
Post by torbeaches-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
It was a snazzy name (just as the car companies were coming
up with snazzy names for their new products in the 60s)
But those names didn't appear out of thin air by magic.
Somebody thought them up. I don't know exactly how the process
worked, but I imagine a list of possible names being drawn up,
a committee debating the pluses and minuses of each, and a
senior executive signing off on the final choice.
Post by torbeaches-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
suggesting speed, and I'm betting that was that.
But "Rapido" didn't appear out of a vacuum. It was already
in use elsewhere.

According to the Italian Wikipedia, on the Italian State
Railways, "rapido" was a category of service created in 1931
and used until the late 1980s.
<http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treno_rapido>

In Spain, the Tren Español Rápido was a diesel multiple unit
that entered service in January 1965, a few months before CN's
train, but that had been in development since 1962.
<http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_597_de_Renfe>
I don't know if there was a prior history of the use of
"Rápido" as a train name in Spain or Latin America.

Were the people at CN who decided on that name aware of the
above? I don't know, but I would guess so.

Which brings us to the pronunciation. To anybody who speaks
Italian or Spanish or Portuguese, the CN pronunciation sounds
wrong. I'm not competent to say how grating it sounds to
native speakers of those languages, but it might be annoying.
So did CN deliberately choose a non-standard pronunciation,
or were they just misinformed about the correct pronunciation?
I can't think of any obvious advantage to the non-standard
pronunciation. I know it's a minor point and we may never
know the answer, but it's the sort of thing I'm curious about.
Post by torbeaches-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Oh, and it was also bilingual-enough sounding, which was
(and is) an important factor.
Yes, indeed. I expect CN didn't want a name that was English
but not French, or French but not English. They wanted one
that was both (like Super Continental) or that was neither,
but could easily be understood by both (like Rapido).

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


------------------------------------
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------------------------------------

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torbeaches-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 01:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Tom, I really don't have any of the answers you are seeking. And I seriously wonder, after this passage of time, if anyone honestly does, unless they were actually there.


What I do know (and was aware of long before the show "Mad Men") is that marketing types looked for names that had "zip" and connoted in the best fashion the primary aspect of the product they were promoting.


Speed was the key to Rapido's success and just as "Avanti" gave Studebaker a cachet for its new offering in 1963 (one of so many ad agency gems), I have a hunch one of the whiz kids retained by CN hit on "Rapido" and the name stuck.


I have to admit, it was a good one. It made more sense than "Tempo" a few years later. But I can't imagine anyone wanting to remember that branding or the equipment to which it referred.


Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
mile179kingston-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 03:58:10 UTC
Permalink
The March 1967 TRAINS magazine article on "The Most Talked About Train on the Continent - the Rapido" by James A. Brown includes one sentence concerning the naming of this new service, born of the demise of the Pool trains:

"The name Rapido was artfully selected so as to favor neither the English nor the French sides of Canada's dual culture, yet convey the unmistakeable meaning in both."


Not much else - nothing on the proper way to pronounce it. PA announcement from article: "Mesdames, messieurs. Soyez les bienvenus dans le Rapido du CN..." illustrating the bilingual nature of CN's service names at the time. And later, this one: "Ladies and gentlemen. We have just passed Kingston. The Rapido is on time" (average speed 67 mph with no intermediate passenger stops, though crew changes made expeditiously at Brockville and Belleville).


Some non-pronunciation-related Rapido launch trivia: the Rapido was inaugurated by Mayors of its terminal cities, on closed-circuit television with high CN officials in attendance. Champagne bottles were smashed over the locomotive fronts, with souvenirs and corsages given to the passengers. CN billed the train as "The Fastest Intercity Train in North America" as its theme in Rapido merchandising. CP hosted the fastest daily service between Montreal and Toronto, since Rapido service was daily except Saturday.


Oh no - I just discovered a photo in the article of Toronto Union with the following inscription: CN Track No. 1 Welcome Aboard! Soyes Les Bienvenus! Bienvenido A Bordo! Trilingual Rapido reference?


Eric
*I remember reading a TRAINS article which included a phonetic pronunciation of Tehachapi. For years, I referred to it as Too-HA-CHOO-pee, which sounds more like a swamp Florida than a California railroad shrine! Perhaps TRAINS didn't think it was necessary to include a pronunciation guide for Rapido.
jshron-YqRVrQajj0gP6ugs0E69NA@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 02:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom,
Post by torbeaches-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Does anybody know more about how CN chose the name for its
new train, or how it came to be pronounced as described above?
Frankly Tom, I doubt anyone gave it that much thought.
Really? CN was obviously conscious of the importance of
branding, as shown by its 1960 image makeover with the new
corporate logo, new paint scheme, etc. What makes you believe
they wouldn't think long and hard about the name of their new
flagship train?
Post by torbeaches-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
It was a snazzy name (just as the car companies were coming
up with snazzy names for their new products in the 60s)
But those names didn't appear out of thin air by magic.
Somebody thought them up. I don't know exactly how the process
worked, but I imagine a list of possible names being drawn up,
a committee debating the pluses and minuses of each, and a
senior executive signing off on the final choice.


---


Actually, Derek is probably more right than wrong.


While there may have been a handful of people in head office who knew how they wanted it pronounced (and it was indeed Ra-PEE-do), that would not have been properly communicated to people on the ground.


I have a series of internal memos about the Turbo from 1966 - so we're talking one year later for CN's other new train. Various departments were referring to the train as: Turbo, turbo, The Turbo, TurboTrain, turbotrain, etc. The memos were an attempt to get everyone to refer to the train the same way: Turbo.


So you would welcome people aboard Turbo and you'd say I'm taking Turbo to Montreal. Like that lasted.... :-)


I am willing to wager that after that interview on CBC a similar memo went out encouraging managers to tell their teams that the train is the Ra-PEE-do. The memo is probably sitting in a box at Exporail if anyone wants to go digging....


-Jason
mile179kingston-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 03:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Google is not my friend right now. Repeated attempts to dredge historical information on the Rapido launch from the mile-wide, foot-deep depths of the internet result in a net full of hits. A couple of hits from Wikipedia, a couple linking the aforementioned CBC archives piece, and the remainder from a certain Canadian model railway manufacturing company of the same name, undreamed of during the CN passenger services era!

Now, somewhere I have a kindly-supplied copy of that 1967 TRAINS magazine article...

Eric Gagnon
Kingston, Ontario
Just blogged Kingston-Toronto return trip at:
http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.ca http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.ca
torbeaches-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 11:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Nice to start the day knowing that I am "....probably more right than wrong."

Whether or not the big brains at CN headquarters wanted "Rapido" to be pronounced one way or another - and we can debate that one 'til the cows come home - I have no doubt at all that the general acceptance of "Ra-PEE-do in English was fueled largely by radio advertising, of which there was a great deal at the time the train was launched.


Of greater interest to me (and I am among those fortunate enough to have frequently ridden the train in its early days) was the travelling public's reaction to crew change stops at Brockville and Belleville. I recall well the comments from fellow passengers such as "Why are we stopping here? I thought this was a non-stop express."


After all, who would expect such a hot train to require three engine crews for a five hour run?


Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
Jon Calon jon.yg-E/5X+czw1vY@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 12:31:35 UTC
Permalink
How much longer after the trains introduction did the subdivisions get merged into the Kingston? Wouldn't surprise me that some of those complaints led to the amalgamation...

Cheers,
Jon
Post by torbeaches-/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Of greater interest to me (and I am among those fortunate enough to have frequently ridden the train in its early days) was the travelling public's reaction to crew change stops at Brockville and Belleville. I recall well the comments from fellow passengers such as "Why are we stopping here? I thought this was a non-stop express."
After all, who would expect such a hot train to require three engine crews for a five hour run?
Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
mile179kingston-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 23:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Jon, to give an idea of the lengthening of crew districts, CN Brockville head end crew change eliminated June 29, 1980. Conductor/trainman crew change had been eliminated in Aug, 1972. A general reduction of CN facilities in both cities carried on much longer. It seems geography had something to do with it - Montreal-Brockville, Brockville-Belleville, Belleville-Toronto approximately 100 miles each segment.

Eric Gagnon
Kingston, Ontario
http://drivethrus.blogspot.ca http://drivethrus.blogspot.ca
Tom Box tbox-7i5HoP2kWQc@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 03:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by jshron-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
While there may have been a handful of people in head office
who knew how they wanted it pronounced (and it was indeed
Ra-PEE-do),
That's interesting. Just the sort of detail I'm curious about.
It raises some further questions.

* How do you know they wanted it that way?

* Why did they want that pronunciation? Were they aware it
was wrong, by native-speaker standards?

(I do take Derek's point that many of the details may be unknowable
half a century later.)
Post by jshron-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
that would not have been properly communicated to people
on the ground.
Yes, we can see that from the conductor's pronunciation in the CBC
clip at the start of this thread. But the pronunciation cited by
Jason above did take hold pretty quickly. How did that come about?
I wasn't very old when the Rapido entered service, and my family
didn't ride it in its early years (of course it didn't stop in Port
Hope), but I can recall my parents and other adults talking about
it now and then, and they always used Jason's pronunciation, not the
conductor's, nor the correct Italian/Spanish/Portuguese one.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


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Posted by: Tom Box <tbox-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

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G Burridge gburridge-/wvCPmv6SvYTjfjEsPSlEQ@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 04:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Post by jshron-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
While there may have been a handful of people in head office
who knew how they wanted it pronounced (and it was indeed
Ra-PEE-do),
That's interesting. Just the sort of detail I'm curious about.
It raises some further questions.
* How do you know they wanted it that way?
* Why did they want that pronunciation? Were they aware it
was wrong, by native-speaker standards?
(I do take Derek's point that many of the details may be unknowable
half a century later.)
Post by jshron-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
that would not have been properly communicated to people
on the ground.
Yes, we can see that from the conductor's pronunciation in the CBC
clip at the start of this thread. But the pronunciation cited by
Jason above did take hold pretty quickly. How did that come about?
I wasn't very old when the Rapido entered service, and my family
didn't ride it in its early years (of course it didn't stop in Port
Hope), but I can recall my parents and other adults talking about
it now and then, and they always used Jason's pronunciation, not the
conductor's, nor the correct Italian/Spanish/Portuguese one.
And, in French, the stress for the train name was on the
_last_ syllable, Ra-pee-DOH, rounding out the pronunciation possibilities ...
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Trace history of Canadian Pacific Sleeping Dining & Parlor Cars:
<http://pages.globetrotter.net/burridge/CPR_SDP_HistTrace.ods>
Railways of Quebec City and South-Eastern Quebec:
<http://pages.globetrotter.net/burridge/index.htm>
Gerry Burridge - P.O. Box 152 - Pte.Claire, Que. - H9R 4N9 - CANADA
=====================================================================



------------------------------------
Posted by: G Burridge <gburridge-/***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

For help, send an email to Canadian-Passenger-Rail-help-***@public.gmane.org
Tom Box tbox-7i5HoP2kWQc@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 12:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by mile179kingston-FFYn/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Some non-pronunciation-related Rapido launch trivia: the Rapido
was inaugurated by Mayors of its terminal cities, on closed-
circuit television with high CN officials in attendance.
Champagne bottles were smashed over the locomotive fronts,
with souvenirs and corsages given to the passengers.
The very first passenger to board the eastward train in Toronto
was an eager 22-year-old railfan named David Kwechansky. He was
greeted by a CN vice president, who presented him with a gold
Universal Genève Railrouter watch, with an official photographer
on hand to record the occasion.
<Loading Image...>

The CN public relations department was horrified to discover
that he worked in the accounting department of ... Canadian
Pacific! He later became a market research analyst for CN.
He tells the story in a great article in the June 1994 issue
of Rail & Transit magazine.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


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------------------------------------

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torbeaches-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-23 14:56:04 UTC
Permalink
I had forgotten that story, Tom. The newspapers had a field day with it once it got out, if I remember correctly.

Thanks for the reminder. Imagine the odds of that happening.




Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
mile179kingston-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-24 01:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Apparently young David worked in Montreal, and came to Toronto specifically to ride back home on the Rapido. (Rapido - an Italian word, carefully chosen to be multilingual.) The incident was reported in the Toronto Star by Ron Haggart. Outspoken Gordon Sinclair (remember Front Page Challenge?) rode the Rapido on a trip to Montreal, and two days later reported on Toronto's CFRB that it was the nicest ride he'd ever had - out of this world - and he'd never drive again to Montreal.

Eric
torbeaches-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-24 01:45:27 UTC
Permalink
I don't think CN anticipated the overwhelmingly favourable response to the Rapido. It was remarkably, and Gordon Sinclair was but one of many high-profile people who sang its praises.

While American roads were shedding first-class service in the mid 60s, CN was adding club cars to the train. First class was well patronized.


Service began even before the train left the station. The attendant would come around with canapes such as smoked oysters on melba toast rounds and shrimp cocktail. Drink orders were also dealt with while still in the station.


Dinner reservations were made - three sitting options if I remember it right. The meal was included in the ticket price - except for wine and spirits. And there was a surcharge for the prime rib, but any of the meals was first rate - cooked from scratch onboard. First class passengers in those early days had their own dining car.


The motivation to fly was seriously challenged with this wonderful train. To travel between the two cities by Rapido one way and on the overnight Cavalier in sleeping accommodations the other (as I often did on business trips) was an experience not to be missed. I was not alone in appreciating it.


Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
Tom Box tbox-7i5HoP2kWQc@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-24 13:23:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by mile179kingston-FFYn/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
The very first passenger to board the eastward train in
Toronto was an eager 22-year-old railfan named David Kwechansky.
[...] The CN public relations department was horrified to
discover that he worked in the accounting department of ...
Canadian Pacific!
Apparently young David worked in Montreal,
Where the CPR head office was located in 1965.
Post by mile179kingston-FFYn/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
and came to Toronto specifically to ride back home on the
Rapido.
On the last-ever CPR overnight passenger train from Montreal to
Toronto. From Sunday to Friday, it ran via Belleville, but on
Saturday night/Sunday morning, when he was travelling, it was
combined with the Ottawa - Toronto night train (also on its last
run) at Smiths Falls, and ran via Havelock. In his 1994 Rail &
Transit article, he writes "I took a picture of it on arriving
at Union, possibly the only arrival shot of that last run. The
rest of the skimpy load headed off with nary a glance or picture
taken, having ridden only to get to Toronto, not for the sake of
history."

He also writes "Politically [as a CPR employee], I should have
planned to ride CP's first Château Champlain, but only one new
train [CN's Rapido] had stardust on its shoulders, and my
intent was to rub shoulders with the best."

and on being the first-ever Rapido passenger: "a cheerful public-
relations man was waiting to record my particulars: name, age,
address, phone number, occupation. He blanched at the answer to
that last one, and after a pursed-lips grimace that probably
lasted two seconds but felt like ten, asked testily if I was a
revenue passenger. I hadn't been with CP long enough to qualify
for a pass, and showed him I had paid full fare like anyone else.
That placated him somewhat, but I had definitely seen the last
of his good cheer."

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


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Posted by: Tom Box <tbox-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

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'DAVID J. SCOTT' tiadjs-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-24 19:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Memories.

I rode the Rapido from Montreal to Toronto and  was seated in the first car behind the locomotives.
What a trip  with service and souvenirs, etc, The thing that has stuck in my mind was the fact that  there were 3 locomotives for  6 cars ,very overpowered  after the enginecrew change at Belleville, was when we passed over the crossing to the west of the  station  the gates  only  started to drop, and I'm sure  the gates only were completely   horizontal when the the last car had cleared the crossing.
I returned to Montreal on the overnight train.
David Scott
Toronto



On Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:23:28 AM, "Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]" <Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:



 
Post by mile179kingston-FFYn/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
The very first passenger to board the eastward train in
Toronto was an eager 22-year-old railfan named David Kwechansky.
[...] The CN public relations department was horrified to
discover that he worked in the accounting department of ...
Canadian Pacific!
Apparently young David worked in Montreal,
Where the CPR head office was located in 1965.
Post by mile179kingston-FFYn/***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
and came to Toronto specifically to ride back home on the
Rapido.
On the last-ever CPR overnight passenger train from Montreal to
Toronto. From Sunday to Friday, it ran via Belleville, but on
Saturday night/Sunday morning, when he was travelling, it was
combined with the Ottawa - Toronto night train (also on its last
run) at Smiths Falls, and ran via Havelock. In his 1994 Rail &
Transit article, he writes "I took a picture of it on arriving
at Union, possibly the only arrival shot of that last run. The
rest of the skimpy load headed off with nary a glance or picture
taken, having ridden only to get to Toronto, not for the sake of
history."

He also writes "Politically [as a CPR employee], I should have
planned to ride CP's first Château Champlain, but only one new
train [CN's Rapido] had stardust on its shoulders, and my
intent was to rub shoulders with the best."

and on being the first-ever Rapido passenger: "a cheerful public-
relations man was waiting to record my particulars: name, age,
address, phone number, occupation. He blanched at the answer to
that last one, and after a pursed-lips grimace that probably
lasted two seconds but felt like ten, asked testily if I was a
revenue passenger. I hadn't been with CP long enough to qualify
for a pass, and showed him I had paid full fare like anyone else.
That placated him somewhat, but I had definitely seen the last
of his good cheer."

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada
torbeaches-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-25 10:12:38 UTC
Permalink
It is too bad a comprehensive book has not been written on the Rapido, similar in detail to the one Jason crafted for the Turbo.

Certainly it is a train worthy of its own volume and it would undoubtedly be well and widely received.


Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
Derek Boles derekboles-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-27 02:14:33 UTC
Permalink
The Turbo was a uniquely Canadian form of technology and much of Jason’s book focuses on that. I’m not sure there would be enough content for a book solely about the Rapido, although I think a history of Montreal-Toronto passenger service or even CN’s strenuous efforts to revive passenger service in the 1960s would fill a volume. It would also attract American readers since so a fair number of CN's cars were purchased from U.S. roads that had given up on passenger trains.

The preparation for such a book would require an extended trip to Ottawa and research at the National Archives and the Canada Technology Museum (or whatever they’re calling these institutions this week).

I grew up in Montreal, rode the last westbound Pool Train in 1966, moved to Toronto in 1968, and rode the Rapidos many times commuting back home with many pleasant memories sitting in the bar car socializing with interesting folk. I lament when the bar car disappeared from passenger trains although, having moved from Quebec to Ontario with their then and now puritanical booze policies, that development came as no surprise.

Meanwhile we do have Kevin Holland’s Morning Sun book on CN Southern Ontario passenger service.

Derek Boles
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: 1965: All aboard the Rapido! (CBC radio archives)
Date: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:12 am ((PDT))
It is too bad a comprehensive book has not been written on the Rapido, similar in detail to the one Jason crafted for the Turbo.
Certainly it is a train worthy of its own volume and it would undoubtedly be well and widely received.
Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

For help, send an email to Canadian-Passenger-Rail-help-***@public.gmane.org
torbeaches-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-27 10:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Whether it be a book focussing largely on the Rapido, or on Montreal-Toronto service more generally, it is a subject that deserves to be tackled. Were I thirty or even twenty years younger, I might be tempted.

No criticism of Kevin Holland's fine book intended or implied, but by its broad parameters, it realistically could only touch on the basic elements of the history of Montreal-Toronto passenger rail service.


The amazing variety of the passenger equipment deployed, the amenities afforded passengers in both first class and coach (such as this bar car referred to that was so well patronized in the early Rapido years), all of this is worthy of at least one volume, possibly two.


Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
mile179kingston-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-27 12:36:21 UTC
Permalink
I have to agree with Derek. Out of the flames of the Pool train agreement, the Rapido emerged as a passenger phoenix, flapping its wings throughout the Corridor. A major re-mix of the Canadian passenger theme.

What does 'a book' really constitute? It wouldn't have to be a 300-page tome to be useful. I also checked through Holland's Southern Ontario book, but it would not overlap with the content of a Rapido book. This could be a totally different format from a Morning Sun book. Covering the genesis, launch, history, equipment, amenities and publicity surrounding this unique train, it could be 10, 20 or 50 pages.


Derek, if you need votes to support you, here's one! I'm all about encouraging this type of project by someone who has the 'chops' to bring it to fruition. Remember, you're someone who actually rode the train in the CN era! That is a huge advantage, as you bring memories to such a project that you don't have to research.


Eric Gagnon
Kingston, Ontario
Just blogged QOPX Woodchip Gondolas at:
http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.ca http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.ca
torbeaches-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-27 14:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the encouragement, Eric.

As much as I'd love to take on a project of this nature - always did want to create a book - my time is severely restricted. I could not possibly do it justice. That being said, I'd be happy to share recollections to whoever did have the time and talent, for what that might be worth.


Derek Thompson
Toronto, Ontario
mile179kingston-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-27 23:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Good point, Derek. What struck me from your post was "I might be tempted". Wouldn't we all like to be 20 or 30 years younger :)

However, you raise an excellent point about sharing your experiences. Very valuable stuff now that we are, rough estimate here...two generations post-Rapido?


Eric
Tom Box tbox-7i5HoP2kWQc@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-27 23:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Boles derekboles-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
I grew up in Montreal, rode the last westbound Pool Train in 1966
You mean 1965, right? The Rapido began on October 31, 1965, and if I
understand correctly, the last pool trains departed the day before.

Which train are you counting as the last pool train? Overnight
trains CNR #17 and CPR #21 were both listed as pool trains in the
timetables. #17 was the last to depart, at 23:15 vs 22:15 for #21,
but #21 was the last to arrive, at 07:00 vs 06:30 for #17.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, David Kwechansky rode the
last overnight #21 on the way to his trip on the first Rapido.

#17 and #21 were officially pool trains, but since they ran
exclusively on CN or CP, respectively, perhaps they didn't have
the feel of a pool train to the average passenger. I was very
young at the time the pool agreement was cancelled, so I can't
comment from firsthand experience. Did each use rolling stock
from both railways, or was it all CN cars on #17 and CP on #21?

A train with more obvious "poolishness" was late-afternoon #15,
and its eastward counterpart, #6. They ran on CP tracks between
Windsor Station and Dorval, and on CN between Dorval and Toronto.
Pictures of the first and last runs of #15 in pool service, taken
at Dorval and Montreal West respectively, can be seen on p. 2 of
<http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no171_1965.pdf>.
More details of the first run in 1933, including going from Turcot
Yard to Windsor Station via Dorval, are in
<http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no140_1963.pdf>.

#15 and #6 continued largely unchanged after the end of the pool,
except that they ran to/from Central Station instead of Windsor
(and their only stop between Belleville and Oshawa was changed
from Port Hope to Cobourg). They were also renamed. They had
been the International Limited westward and the Inter-City Limited
eastward, but they became the Bonaventure in both directions as of
Hallowe'en 1965. The Rapido left Montreal or Toronto just five
minutes ahead of the Bonaventure, but got to the other endpoint
56 min ahead.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


------------------------------------
Posted by: Tom Box <tbox-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

For help, send an email to Canadian-Passenger-Rail-help-***@public.gmane.org
'Don Thomas' thomasd-fVOoFLC7IWo@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-28 00:33:09 UTC
Permalink
The night trains, 21/22 and 16/17, normally carried only their own roads’ cars. In their last few years, 21/22 were combined with Ottawa-Toronto pool trains 33/34 west of Smiths Falls, with the Montreal cars running in 33/34 on the inland Havelock/Peterborough line. Trains 33/34 were “typical” pool trains carrying both CP and CN cars, so somebody riding the last run of train 21 would have CN cars on their train when they were added to the consist of train 33 at Smiths Falls.



Don Thomas



From: Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: July-27-14 5:32 PM
To: Canadian Passenger Rail
Subject: [CanPassRail] Re: 1965: All aboard the Rapido! (CBC radio archives)
Post by Derek Boles derekboles-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
I grew up in Montreal, rode the last westbound Pool Train in 1966
You mean 1965, right? The Rapido began on October 31, 1965, and if I
understand correctly, the last pool trains departed the day before.

Which train are you counting as the last pool train? Overnight
trains CNR #17 and CPR #21 were both listed as pool trains in the
timetables. #17 was the last to depart, at 23:15 vs 22:15 for #21,
but #21 was the last to arrive, at 07:00 vs 06:30 for #17.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, David Kwechansky rode the
last overnight #21 on the way to his trip on the first Rapido.

#17 and #21 were officially pool trains, but since they ran
exclusively on CN or CP, respectively, perhaps they didn't have
the feel of a pool train to the average passenger. I was very
young at the time the pool agreement was cancelled, so I can't
comment from firsthand experience. Did each use rolling stock
from both railways, or was it all CN cars on #17 and CP on #21?

A train with more obvious "poolishness" was late-afternoon #15,
and its eastward counterpart, #6. They ran on CP tracks between
Windsor Station and Dorval, and on CN between Dorval and Toronto.
Pictures of the first and last runs of #15 in pool service, taken
at Dorval and Montreal West respectively, can be seen on p. 2 of
<http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no171_1965.pdf>.
More details of the first run in 1933, including going from Turcot
Yard to Windsor Station via Dorval, are in
<http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no140_1963.pdf>.

#15 and #6 continued largely unchanged after the end of the pool,
except that they ran to/from Central Station instead of Windsor
(and their only stop between Belleville and Oshawa was changed
from Port Hope to Cobourg). They were also renamed. They had
been the International Limited westward and the Inter-City Limited
eastward, but they became the Bonaventure in both directions as of
Hallowe'en 1965. The Rapido left Montreal or Toronto just five
minutes ahead of the Bonaventure, but got to the other endpoint
56 min ahead.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada
John johnpcowan-fVOoFLC7IWo@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-28 00:35:29 UTC
Permalink
How could they be combined west of Smiths Falls if they had to
separate again at Glen Tay?

John
Post by 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
The night trains, 21/22 and 16/17, normally carried only their own
roads’ cars. In their last few years, 21/22 were combined with
Ottawa-Toronto pool trains 33/34 west of Smiths Falls, with the
Montreal cars running in 33/34 on the inland Havelock/Peterborough
line. Trains 33/34 were “typical” pool trains carrying both CP and
CN cars, so somebody riding the last run of train 21 would have CN
cars on their train when they were added to the consist of train 33
at Smiths Falls.
Don Thomas
]
Sent: July-27-14 5:32 PM
To: Canadian Passenger Rail
Subject: [CanPassRail] Re: 1965: All aboard the Rapido! (CBC radio archives)
Post by Derek Boles derekboles-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
I grew up in Montreal, rode the last westbound Pool Train in 1966
You mean 1965, right? The Rapido began on October 31, 1965, and if I
understand correctly, the last pool trains departed the day before.
Which train are you counting as the last pool train? Overnight
trains CNR #17 and CPR #21 were both listed as pool trains in the
timetables. #17 was the last to depart, at 23:15 vs 22:15 for #21,
but #21 was the last to arrive, at 07:00 vs 06:30 for #17.
As was mentioned earlier in this thread, David Kwechansky rode the
last overnight #21 on the way to his trip on the first Rapido.
#17 and #21 were officially pool trains, but since they ran
exclusively on CN or CP, respectively, perhaps they didn't have
the feel of a pool train to the average passenger. I was very
young at the time the pool agreement was cancelled, so I can't
comment from firsthand experience. Did each use rolling stock
from both railways, or was it all CN cars on #17 and CP on #21?
A train with more obvious "poolishness" was late-afternoon #15,
and its eastward counterpart, #6. They ran on CP tracks between
Windsor Station and Dorval, and on CN between Dorval and Toronto.
Pictures of the first and last runs of #15 in pool service, taken
at Dorval and Montreal West respectively, can be seen on p. 2 of
<http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no171_1965.pdf>.
More details of the first run in 1933, including going from Turcot
Yard to Windsor Station via Dorval, are in
<http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no140_1963.pdf>.
#15 and #6 continued largely unchanged after the end of the pool,
except that they ran to/from Central Station instead of Windsor
(and their only stop between Belleville and Oshawa was changed
from Port Hope to Cobourg). They were also renamed. They had
been the International Limited westward and the Inter-City Limited
eastward, but they became the Bonaventure in both directions as of
Hallowe'en 1965. The Rapido left Montreal or Toronto just five
minutes ahead of the Bonaventure, but got to the other endpoint
56 min ahead.
Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada
'Don Thomas' thomasd-fVOoFLC7IWo@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-28 01:02:17 UTC
Permalink
They didn't separate again at Glen Tay. On Saturday nights in the last years
of pool service. there was no train 21 or 22 on the Belleville Subdivision.
The Montreal cars operated on trains 33 and 34 through Havelock and
Peterborough. The trains actually joined or separated at Smiths Falls, and
on Saturday night/Sunday morning trains 21 and 22 only operated east of
Smiths Falls.



Don Thomas



From: Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: July-27-14 6:35 PM
To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [CanPassRail] Re: 1965: All aboard the Rapido! (CBC radio
archives)





How could they be combined west of Smiths Falls if they had to separate
again at Glen Tay?



John



On 27-Jul-14, at 5:33 PM, 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org
[Canadian-Passenger-Rail] wrote:









The night trains, 21/22 and 16/17, normally carried only their own roads'
cars. In their last few years, 21/22 were combined with Ottawa-Toronto pool
trains 33/34 west of Smiths Falls, with the Montreal cars running in 33/34
on the inland Havelock/Peterborough line. Trains 33/34 were "typical" pool
trains carrying both CP and CN cars, so somebody riding the last run of
train 21 would have CN cars on their train when they were added to the
consist of train 33 at Smiths Falls.



Don Thomas



From: Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:Canadian-Passenger-Rail-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: July-27-14 5:32 PM
To: Canadian Passenger Rail
Subject: [CanPassRail] Re: 1965: All aboard the Rapido! (CBC radio archives)
Post by Derek Boles derekboles-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
I grew up in Montreal, rode the last westbound Pool Train in 1966
You mean 1965, right? The Rapido began on October 31, 1965, and if I
understand correctly, the last pool trains departed the day before.

Which train are you counting as the last pool train? Overnight
trains CNR #17 and CPR #21 were both listed as pool trains in the
timetables. #17 was the last to depart, at 23:15 vs 22:15 for #21,
but #21 was the last to arrive, at 07:00 vs 06:30 for #17.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, David Kwechansky rode the
last overnight #21 on the way to his trip on the first Rapido.

#17 and #21 were officially pool trains, but since they ran
exclusively on CN or CP, respectively, perhaps they didn't have
the feel of a pool train to the average passenger. I was very
young at the time the pool agreement was cancelled, so I can't
comment from firsthand experience. Did each use rolling stock
from both railways, or was it all CN cars on #17 and CP on #21?

A train with more obvious "poolishness" was late-afternoon #15,
and its eastward counterpart, #6. They ran on CP tracks between
Windsor Station and Dorval, and on CN between Dorval and Toronto.
Pictures of the first and last runs of #15 in pool service, taken
at Dorval and Montreal West respectively, can be seen on p. 2 of
<http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no171_1965.pdf>.
More details of the first run in 1933, including going from Turcot
Yard to Windsor Station via Dorval, are in
<http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no140_1963.pdf>.

#15 and #6 continued largely unchanged after the end of the pool,
except that they ran to/from Central Station instead of Windsor
(and their only stop between Belleville and Oshawa was changed
from Port Hope to Cobourg). They were also renamed. They had
been the International Limited westward and the Inter-City Limited
eastward, but they became the Bonaventure in both directions as of
Hallowe'en 1965. The Rapido left Montreal or Toronto just five
minutes ahead of the Bonaventure, but got to the other endpoint
56 min ahead.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada
Tom Box tbox-7i5HoP2kWQc@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-28 03:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
The night trains, 21/22 and 16/17, normally carried only their
own roads' cars.
I see. Thanks for that information.
Post by 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
In their last few years,
Their last four years, it seems. Timetables indicate the combined
21-33 and 22-34 operation began in October 1961.
Post by 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
21/22 were combined with Ottawa-Toronto pool trains 33/34 west
of Smiths Falls, with the Montreal cars running in 33/34 on the
inland Havelock/Peterborough line.
As Don clarified in a later posting, that was on Saturday night/
Sunday morning only, not on other days. Combined 22-34 ran on
the same schedule as weekday 34 from Toronto to Smiths Falls,
but that was not the case for 21-33. It had a different timetable
from weekday 33.
Post by 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
#15 and #6 continued largely unchanged after the end of the pool,
except that they ran to/from Central Station instead of Windsor
(and their only stop between Belleville and Oshawa was changed
from Port Hope to Cobourg).
That was true for the Montreal - Toronto cars, but I overlooked
another important difference before and after the end of the pool.
The pool trains also carried Ottawa - Toronto cars, which ran on
CP between Ottawa and Brockville (the same as today's VIA route
between Smiths Falls and Brockville, but a now mostly-abandoned
route from Ottawa to Smiths Falls, through Hull, Ottawa West and
Carleton Place). They were added to/subtracted from the Montreal
train at Brockville. After the end of the pool, these trains no
longer had Ottawa cars, at least for the first few months.

Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada


------------------------------------
Posted by: Tom Box <tbox-***@public.gmane.org>
------------------------------------

For help, send an email to Canadian-Passenger-Rail-help-***@public.gmane.org
PBBowers 4everwaiting-jo25GeiH2Oje0AzmVY4PQg@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
2014-07-29 19:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Post by 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
The night trains, 21/22 and 16/17, normally carried only their
own roads' cars.
I see. Thanks for that information.
Post by 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
In their last few years,
Their last four years, it seems. Timetables indicate the combined
21-33 and 22-34 operation began in October 1961.
Post by 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
21/22 were combined with Ottawa-Toronto pool trains 33/34 west
of Smiths Falls, with the Montreal cars running in 33/34 on the
inland Havelock/Peterborough line.
As Don clarified in a later posting, that was on Saturday night/
Sunday morning only, not on other days. Combined 22-34 ran on
the same schedule as weekday 34 from Toronto to Smiths Falls,
but that was not the case for 21-33. It had a different timetable
from weekday 33.
Post by 'Don Thomas' thomasd-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
Post by Tom Box tbox-***@public.gmane.org [Canadian-Passenger-Rail]
#15 and #6 continued largely unchanged after the end of the pool,
except that they ran to/from Central Station instead of Windsor
(and their only stop between Belleville and Oshawa was changed
from Port Hope to Cobourg).
That was true for the Montreal - Toronto cars, but I overlooked
another important difference before and after the end of the pool.
The pool trains also carried Ottawa - Toronto cars, which ran on
CP between Ottawa and Brockville (the same as today's VIA route
between Smiths Falls and Brockville, but a now mostly-abandoned
route from Ottawa to Smiths Falls, through Hull, Ottawa West and
Carleton Place). They were added to/subtracted from the Montreal
train at Brockville. After the end of the pool, these trains no
longer had Ottawa cars, at least for the first few months.
Tom Box
tbox at ncf dot ca
Port Hope, ON, Canada
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